I first met Marc Maron in 2010 at a comedy festival in Southern California. WTF was less than a year old, and most of the guests thus far were “alternative comedians”. All podcasts back then were either tech-focused or comedy-focused, particularly LA alternative comedy. I found the tech ones interminably boring, but alternative comedy was really important to me and I was hooked on WTF.

I was in the back of a van with Maron and Maria Bamford (in hindsight, insane situation) as we drove around Lake Arrowhead for half an hour. Marc bored into me for at least half the time, asking me about what made me move to California, my ethnic background and family history in the US, opinions on late night shows. It was more intense than any first date conversation, and I was flattered by the attention. Still, I doubt it’s an encounter he’d remember. He’d been doing his radio show for years, meeting hundreds of new people a year between that and standup sets. I think he’s just that way - curious about every person and what drives them.

15 years later, WTF with Marc Maron has ended, and Marc’s released a new special, Panicked. He never stopped releasing specials or doing sets, which is amazing when you consider the cadence of WTF. It seems like every comedian has a podcast now, but so many of them are just two hours of bullshitting on YouTube or reminiscing for a Millennial audience with very little preparation. Apologies to Bill Burr and Amy Poehler, but so many of them are nothing-burger ways to sell mattresses and athleisure. WTF interviews always had an impressive amount of prep - reading books, watching film, and actually thinking about the person you’re talking to.

It was more compelling (and obviously less intellectual) than Fresh Air, and most other interview shows. Not nearly as high-minded, while still being substantial. It’s telling that somebody as savvy as Barack Obama went on WTF five years before appearing on Fresh Air, and even came back two weeks ago for the final episode of the show. (edit: Obama actually went on Fresh Air in 2004 when he was an Illinois State Senator. He wouldn’t return until 2020. I don’t think this undermines the point about choosing WTF as an interview venue instead of traditional media)

That Obama episode in 2015 changed everything about the show, and possibly about podcasting in general. It’s so important to the show that it gets its own entry in the “About” section of the WTF site. Serial had come out a year earlier, so your Serious Aunt was finally thinking of it as a legitimate medium. Getting the sitting President was a media appearance previously reserved for 60 Minutes or the New York Times. It was the beginning of “everyone has a podcast” and also the beginning of big money investment in the medium. We got a lot out of it, and surprisingly little. Much like Spotify, once the money showed up, the power laws of internet distribution also took over. It’s hard to build a small audience for your podcast, and maybe harder than ever. I’m sad that what will fill the space left behind by WTF is likely to be either fluff or slop.

Short aside: Did you know the New England Patriots arguably created the first podcast?

I wonder a lot about the connection between WTF and The Joe Rogan Experience, and I’d guess Maron does too. They’re practically the same age, they used to compete for the same acting jobs and the same spots on stage. They both have an amazing capacity to be spiteful, and to hold a grudge. They started their podcasts the same year! One of them has grown as a person, one of them has become maybe the most important person in American media in a generation. This New York Times piece reflects on the connection a bit, but there’s probably a media studies thesis to be written there.

Appendix

Maron has been doing a few interviews, I enjoyed this one with Jesse Thorn, where Brendan McDonald calls out Marc’s intensity on initial meeting, too.